I'm going to whine and complain

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    Father Vincent

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    I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:01 am

    People who were in that event should fucking know how frustrated I am right now. What's left of what I can do in this game was taken away from me, because in all fairness, I just don't give a shit anymore. I feel like I've been crapped on from beginning to end by Grimwind and unless I vent it here, I'm just going to rage all over his face non-stop. This is probably being written for mine and Grimwind's sake, so if you don't give a shit at this point, you're probably not going to give a fuck for the rest of it. I'm also done trying to be civil and polite because I just have no more patience left for that.

    The moment I made my character, I was already boned by Grimwind doing something equivalent to a vasectomy. I made my character under the concept that she would not be of any use in battle, but would be an amazing information gatherer. If I was going to be a Supervisor, why not have the capability to fill that role well? She was essentially going to know of all events around the map in her church while I stay in there. Grimwind looks her over, she gets nerfed because knowing all events around the map is fairly fucking rigged. We compromise and I get the ability to know of major battles and various small things instead. Fine right? No, because now I have a prana cost attached to it that I simply cannot fulfill. Moreover, I can only cut down the prana cost in half by devoting more points to that ability, but I was barred from that more for whatever reason. What should've been a character with no combat value that makes it up with amazing information gathering is now a character with no combat value whose saving grace is her sub-par information gathering. I fill in her points with random abilities because with the way I built her already, I really had nothing else to add. I used my remainder of my 45 points for a secret ability, thinking that it would actually be of use to me both RP-wise and combat-wise.

    Instead, I get some piece of crap trinket that I didn't get until I did some other shit. I was fine with it from the start, since it had a fairly interesting hook to it. It was some diary that was supposed to detail where some item was. Some days and turns pass and I finally get it. I don't know what it does, and Grimwind encourages me to use it. Okay fine, I want my new ability, so I agree to it. Turns out it was a trap that made me lose 100 prana. ...what the fuck? Are you telling me I spent 45 points to shoot myself in the foot? What's worse is that I wouldn't even be able to use it since I'm already strapped for prana. Furthermore, my max health actually goes down. Yes it was 180 armour, but if I needed to pop that shit anyways, I'm probably already dead because I have no health to speak of. I also have no prana to sustain for any worthwhile amount of time. I negotiate with Grimwind on IRC, -100 prana loss is lifted. Fine, I'll move on. Still doesn't change the fact that I can't use it because the costs are so steep. I was under the impression that the GM actually gave you an ability that would be significant with your character's story, fit in with your character's needs instead of intensifying them, and that it actually didn't try to fuck your character over.

    Cut to big-bad organization to take down a master. We have like, 4 Servants and 4 humans that actually have a use (yes, I counted myself out). We surround where they are and send two to go in. I play around with my ability still thinking it was who I thought it was. Turns out it wasn't and the Servant that was watching us was gone. We decide to go in as to save our comrades. Oh wait, we can't. We're stuck outside as they get their asses fried. Justification was we had to wait AN ENTIRE ROUND CYCLE. Why? I don't fucking know. Someone at the epitome of humanity can't climb a set of stairs in time to save someone despite one turn can have someone talking shit for hours on end. Hell, if you really give a shit about canon or w/e, this happened in FSN and Saber was countless blocks away. This alone fucking turns what be an 8v3 into a 1v3. He has done this for someone else as well. Like, what the fuck?

    I realized Fate/Zero was finished translating and got to some part where it turns out Berserker can unlock one of his abilities once with the use of a command seal. I tell him about it and he blows me off by saying he didn't make one. Seriously? You gave me a fucking ability on that character where one of his abilities were semi-unknown and locked because of his class. This is literally expanding on one of your characters and you're going to say no to that? Of course, he decides to toss me a bone after I spent three command seals already. He also didn't create a new ability for me either and allows me to lift a restriction on an ability once (which I'm pretty sure is breaking canon, but I was desperate for anything and there's no point in being tight-ass about that).

    About the use of command seals, I can't believe I even need to comment on this. Why the fuck should the use of command seals be limited like how Grimwind is doing it? I can't escape unless it's my turn? The hell? That's the stupidest thing ever; using a command seal is fucking huge. Why he had to limit that is beyond me, but I can deal with that shit. What's worse is that it even fucking crossed his mind that people shouldn't be able to dodge NPs with command seals. You don't let us walk out of it and you won't let us telepot out of it. I can't believe you even had to take a break to think about it. The cost of losing a command seal is big enough.

    Quite frankly, I still firmly believe I would've lived even though the other side has overpowered Servants out the ass. I went thourgh 5 command seals and I was certain I would be able to just overpower that thing. Except you can't even fucking keep track of your own rules. We've been operating under the impression that clash damage isn't mitigated even further by armour. An entire battle was done following that logic and it also started out like that in that event. Why was the hell is it allowed to change mid-way? What should've been a dead fucking character is now laughing while only taking 40 despite having an attack damage of 500+ (it almost fucking doubles the other guy's attack power) because Grim changed the rules mid-way with no post. Can you at least stay consistent with your rules?

    I talked about the car thing. Whatever.

    Then there's the whole movement thing. I already whined enough in that event thread so I'm not going to go over it again. I'm just going to say that even Grimwind didn't fucking notice they realized it because they put it in a post and continued on with the game anyways. And really, ASSUMING I didn't want to move when I asked I wanted to move is the biggest dick move I have ever seen. Why don't I just assume that since his Servant is acting like an aggressive over-confident prick, he actaully feels really fucking sad and tries to hide it and kills himself when I died and the sorrow was too heavy to bear? But of course, Grimwind doesn't give a shit and moves on for the sake of brevity of this game.

    I could fucking go on. I already explained generally why I think this game is so stupid and frustrating, but this is more of a personal thing. Why the fuck should I have to fight both the GM and the players are the same time. I have no problems with the way I died because that's because the other players led me to it. But the events fucking leading to it is entirely the GM's fault. He might as well have been included on my character sheet as a fucking defect known as "Grimwind" as he's been fucking me over non-stop since the start. Part of it was the battle system and the way he decided to make the game. If that was it, I might've been a little upset, but nowhere near as I am right now. Yes, this is just a game. But it's a game where I actually devoted time to my characters, what they do, what I planned for them to do, and how I was going to build on their relationships later. If I wasn't able to do those because I genuinely lost the game, I'd accept it and move on. Instead, my work feels wasted because the GM acts like it's his job to make this game as painful as possible for me.

    This isn't directly related to me, but if there`s anything I feel about Grim right now, it`s that he builds his game around his own laziness. He builds up a foundation where he has to do as little as possible so he can enjoy the game like a spectator. He implied that he didn't think it'd be as much work as it is right now and that he primarily did this for watching the RP of others. Grimwind goes half-way with his commitment and makes a simple game that is easy for him to manage, but infuriating and limiting for the player. Rallasner worked with a battle system that required the GM to moniter and compare the players' moves. It was incredibly hard to manage the system he was working with, yet it made much more sense and was far less limiting. I'm pretty sure he never complained about how hard it was to manage something like that (at least not in front of me). I understand it's hard work to make an incredibly good RPG, but you waste the efforts of countless others if you don't go all the way.

    I'm done venting. I could add more, but that'd only result in me getting more mad and jabbing more at Grimwind. Hope the few of you somehow manage to find some form of enjoyment in this game. I certainly didn't.


    Last edited by Father Vincent on Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    RMX

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by RMX on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:29 pm


    I'm just going to say that even Grimwind didn't fucking notice they realized it because they put it in a post and continued on with the game anyways.

    I agree that part of the event wasn't pretty, and the map was already a mess. I was kind of absent when that happened. This doesn't sound good, but I guess you were indeed punished for not entertaining the GM. It happens sometimes in RPGs: you can't make an acceptable decision in a somewhat long amount of time for the GM and he decides to go on without you. It sucks but that's how it happened. Yeah, you were basically robbed of a turn.

    I won't agree with you on the part about joining a battle anytime. Sure, it may be because I benefitted from it, but I don't think it's fair if the battle isn't 'locked' at least a few moves after it starts, but I suppose it should be revised.

    Also, stop believing that our Servants were overpowered because we spent most of the time thinking the same about yours. It happened to everyone.

    I suppose I can agree on the rest. Don't know the details of your Master/Servant.

    Meroy

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Meroy on Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:03 pm

    and the map was already a mess

    Then shouldn't the GM make a new map without all the fucking AoE and dead characters? Oh wait, I asked him to do that. Too lazy, deal with it.
    Apparently those 5 minutes would have been too much investment.

    I too, thought the secret power would be made to be good with your character. I haven't received any info about mine yet, so I can't say about that.

    Rules need work, we all know that. Better balance can only be achieved by the GM. Now that we have 2 of them, that should be better.
    Just one thing about Rall's battle system in previous game: I really didn't like the part where you couldn't see what people did. A battle isn't about guessing what your opponent does, it's about reactions.

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    Lucid
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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Lucid on Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:27 pm

    I've pretty much discussed everything Sushi said in person already. I don't think anything I say can change your opinions as what kind of game-master I am, you're already drawn your own conclusions during the game. I hope you found some peace of mind by sharing your experience with others. Sorry that your game was ruined by my game-mastering.
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    Belmont

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Belmont on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:52 am

    The first time you made an invalid movement I contacted you personally on IRC, telling you what you did wrong and even provided you the correct map. However, the next post you do is using a VERY outdated map and even after I asked you about your movement you did not answer so I proceeded with the game. You should not blame the GM for your own fault.

    Next, "We've been operating under the impression that clash damage isn't mitigated even further by armour.". I have never seen this on the wiki and I do not know where you got this idea from.

    Regarding the attempt I can only say that you should have planned it better. You made a mistake by sending only a few in, thinking it would be enough and I believe it is only fair to be punished for a mistake. Using a Command Spell maybe could have helped you get there in time.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:41 am

    You told me I couldn't move diagonally in the same post I used some old map. I wasn't told that I was using an old map. Even you didn't notice. I ask you to move me up one square as I was at school and couldn't do it myself. If you couldn't do it, you should've told me instead of putting in a post where you promptly continue the game. Again, even Grimwind didn't notice you ASSumed I wanted to stand in place. But yes, continue to blame me as you get away with what is pretty much borderline cheating.

    You're right, it wasn't said in the wiki. Neither is the other interpretation. I've played in another battle. Clash damage didn't get absorbed by armour. It also worked that way in the start of the battle against you. Why does it change mid-way when it actually matters?

    Planned what better? We're in the same area, right outside the same temple, being transported by an A (maybe even A+) agility Servant. We're going up a flight of stairs. I don't know where Aelms was, but he was certainly close and he toldme he tried to get in 3 times. What, am I going to have to fly in Japan IRL and find some Ryudoji temple? Is that what it takes for me to get in? I've done everything that I could've done. We're not on the other side of the map, we're RIGHT THERE.
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    Belmont

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Belmont on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:54 am

    Sushi wrote:You told me I couldn't move diagonally in the same post I used some old map. I wasn't told that I was using an old map. Even you didn't notice. I ask you to move me up one square as I was at school and couldn't do it myself. If you couldn't do it, you should've told me instead of putting in a post where you promptly continue the game. Again, even Grimwind didn't notice you ASSumed I wanted to stand in place. But yes, continue to blame me as you get away with what is pretty much borderline cheating.

    You forgot to say that you ignored my question for two days. We only continued the game after waiting two days, not right after your mistake. Also, why would I provide you with the most recent map if your map wasn't outdated?

    Sushi wrote:You're right, it wasn't said in the wiki. Neither is the other interpretation. I've played in another battle. Clash damage didn't get absorbed by armour. It also worked that way in the start of the battle against you. Why does it change mid-way when it actually matters?

    I do not remember this. You clashed once against a certain attack and overpowered it but he did not take any damage because of armor.

    Sushi wrote:Planned what better? We're in the same area, right outside the same temple, being transported by an A (maybe even A+) agility Servant. We're going up a flight of stairs. I don't know where Aelms was, but he was certainly close and he toldme he tried to get in 3 times. What, am I going to have to fly in Japan IRL and find some Ryudoji temple? Is that what it takes for me to get in? I've done everything that I could've done. We're not on the other side of the map, we're RIGHT THERE.

    Your attack. It was a mistake to only send in three people and it is only fair to be punished for a mistake. Did you try to use a Command Spell?

    EDIT: Also, even if you are being carried by a really fast Servant it still take times to get up there, especially when carrying people.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:06 am

    Yes, because I was busy. No, I can't notice because you did it in the same post you continued the game. An appropriate action would be to make a post simply asking me and adding your own action on top of it. There's a reason why Grimwind didn't even see it. This is something that the game should've been stopped for (no, hiding it with a command seal action is not stopping the game. If you truly wanted to do that, you should've posted it in a separate post after).

    You can say whatever the shit you want at this point and play with the semantics of past posts; we operated that way until it was changed later. If you had taken no damage like before like you thought, you would've posted to confirm it like you had in later battles. And to further argue this point, the clash system nerf was because I brought it up from a past battle where we were stuck in a stand-still (yes, we also operated under that same belief). You think he'd increase the amount of stand-stills by further adding the clash with armour? Of course, Grimwind decides to change the system mid-battle anyways and defeats his own rule change.

    I already explained this. If you couldn't get the idea through your head at this point, you're just willfully turning your head in ignorance because it just benefits you. Same area, around the same temple, only thing stopping us is a set of stairs. Set of stairs vs A+ agility Servant. Stairs win. Fairness!
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    RMX

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by RMX on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:11 am

    In all fairness, even if you think it's better to be locked outside of battle or to be able to enter anytime it wasn't specified in the rules. Therefore the GM dis as he pleased. That thing's going to happen all the time.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:15 am

    Yes, and that is why I made this post.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Aelms on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:19 am

    Servants strike tens of times in a second, so its probable that one full round takes around 30 seconds or less. I admit that I was pretty frustrated about not getting into the round in time for various happenings, but I guess it did kind of make sense from a canon point of view.

    Its one thing to say that someone else is at fault too, but its another to make it seem like you yourself is faultless. There was still quite a bit that could have been done even with the inconsistency of the rules. I'm going to flat out say that my decisions were pretty damn poor too at times, and some of my mistakes turned out to be severe. But its not like I have to blame others for all of it.
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    Lucid
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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Lucid on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:20 am

    You're really set on this Temple event huh. Anyways when you sent in the first party and their event started you decided to post afterwards that you want to enter as well. I decided that would happen after a certain amount of rounds had passed. Same with Aelms. Nothing wrong with that I think.
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    Belmont

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Belmont on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:22 am

    Father Vincent wrote:Yes, because I was busy. No, I can't notice because you did it in the same post you continued the game. An appropriate action would be to make a post simply asking me and adding your own action on top of it. There's a reason why Grimwind didn't even see it. This is something that the game should've been stopped for (no, hiding it with a command seal action is not stopping the game. If you truly wanted to do that, you should've posted it in a separate post after).

    That is why I put the spoiler ON TOP of the post so it would be the first thing you check. I could have done it in separate posts but I did not do it because I thought it would be OK like this. Guess I was wrong. Since it caused problems: I apologize for not making it two separate posts.

    EDIT: Though, technically, you are the one who continued with the event as you made an attack with Berserker before your movement was correct. All I did was defend, which is not part of my turn. The game only progressed even further when RMX made his post two days later.

    Father Vincent wrote:You can say whatever the shit you want at this point and play with the semantics of past posts; we operated that way until it was changed later. If you had taken no damage like before like you thought, you would've posted to confirm it like you had in later battles. And to further argue this point, the clash system nerf was because I brought it up from a past battle where we were stuck in a stand-still (yes, we also operated under that same belief). You think he'd increase the amount of stand-stills by further adding the clash with armour? Of course, Grimwind decides to change the system mid-battle anyways and defeats his own rule change.

    We did not operate that way. It did not change. I asked Grim about it and he said it never worked like you described. (EDIT: By that I mean that armor has no effect on clashes)

    I'll drop the argument now because it is not going to get us anywhere.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:48 am

    Like I said, Lancer could traverse the entire span of the town in one round. Servants have enough strength and agility to run from the bottom of a building to the top. Saber would've managed to get to Shirou in time by only running (over the length of several blocks)had Assassin not been there. We're all outside the temple. Lancer has already proved he's pretty fucking fast (he has more movement than even my Berserker). Even considering how fast Servants attack, I doubt they actually went for a melee brawl considering where they died. Fuck, even considering that, I can understand if we missed out on one turn or something. Maybe even two. An entire cycle? Really?

    When I continued with the event, it was for an entirely different movement mistake (moving diagonally). I quickly fixed that later after I remembered that. Had you moved me up, you would've realized I couldn't do so. You did, but then decided you can play my own character for me. You ASSumed I didn't want to move when I clearly asked for a movement. Why? I don't know. You continued anyways. Not pausing the game and actually bringing attention to the mistake is continuing the game.

    I have never been told of this. On numerous occasions I have already acted in this way and so have my other opponent. Grimwind did not tell either of us we were mistaken. Furthermore, I have good reason to believe you thought it was that way as well until I did that for an AoE attack (which I thought was exclusively for clashing AoEs). But even ignoring that, let's just look at what makes sense. I almost completely double your attack power. The difference is pretty substantial. Your defense is merely a fraction of the number by attack power is. Despite this huge ass stat disparity, you walk away with -40. On the flip side, a command seal attack power that has almost a 300 damage disparity is used against me and I walk away with...no damage? Really? Is that fair? Does that make sense?

    I could've done more. In fact, one decision alone would've turned this loss into a win. But is that fair? Why am I even in that position? Should I honestly take blame for this loss? With almost 3 times more people, a perimeter around the area, surveillance aroud the temple, and even 6 command seals, should I really have somehow lost when the other side pretty much just stood there to face us? True, I would've lost some resources had I made the right decision. However, should I even be in that position when I've had every advantage in existence? I can only do so much when the GM impedes me every step of the way.
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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Belmont on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:19 am

    Father Vincent wrote:Like I said, Lancer could traverse the entire span of the town in one round. Servants have enough strength and agility to run from the bottom of a building to the top. Saber would've managed to get to Shirou in time by only running (over the length of several blocks)had Assassin not been there. We're all outside the temple. Lancer has already proved he's pretty fucking fast (he has more movement than even my Berserker). Even considering how fast Servants attack, I doubt they actually went for a melee brawl considering where they died. Fuck, even considering that, I can understand if we missed out on one turn or something. Maybe even two. An entire cycle? Really?

    A single turn is not much, while an entire cycle (the battle did not even last that long) is quite harsh I do think you should be penalized for arriving late. You did say you tried everything possible but did you try to use a Command Spell? I have already asked and would like to know the answer because I think that with a Command Spell it would have been possible, or at least partly possible.

    Father Vincent wrote:When I continued with the event, it was for an entirely different movement mistake (moving diagonally). I quickly fixed that later after I remembered that. Had you moved me up, you would've realized I couldn't do so. You did, but then decided you can play my own character for me. You ASSumed I didn't want to move when I clearly asked for a movement. Why? I don't know. You continued anyways. Not pausing the game and actually bringing attention to the mistake is continuing the game.

    I hate to repeat myself but the facts are: You are the one who continued the event before confirming if your new movement was right and attacked me. I saw that the movement was not correct and asked you in a spoiler, which is quite hard to miss, and defend myself against the attack. Two days pass, you do not say anything. I do not have to hand you everything in a silver plate, you should show some effort too especially when I provided you the most recent map the first time you made the mistake.

    Father Vincent wrote:I have never been told of this. On numerous occasions I have already acted in this way and so have my other opponent. Grimwind did not tell either of us we were mistaken. Furthermore, I have good reason to believe you thought it was that way as well until I did that for an AoE attack (which I thought was exclusively for clashing AoEs). But even ignoring that, let's just look at what makes sense. I almost completely double your attack power. The difference is pretty substantial. Your defense is merely a fraction of the number by attack power is. Despite this huge ass stat disparity, you walk away with -40. On the flip side, a command seal attack power that has almost a 300 damage disparity is used against me and I walk away with...no damage? Really? Is that fair? Does that make sense?

    Do you see me complaining? No? There is your answer. I think it is fair because it is something both me and my opponent can use and I was well aware of this mechanic when building my Master.

    Father Vincent wrote:I could've done more. In fact, one decision alone would've turned this loss into a win. But is that fair? Why am I even in that position? Should I honestly take blame for this loss? With almost 3 times more people, a perimeter around the area, surveillance aroud the temple, and even 6 command seals, should I really have somehow lost when the other side pretty much just stood there to face us? True, I would've lost some resources had I made the right decision. However, should I even be in that position when I've had every advantage in existence? I can only do so much when the GM impedes me every step of the way.

    Once the game is over you will be able to see character sheets and Servant sheets. You did not have every advantage in existence because you did not know who you were facing and what abilities and other tricks they have.

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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Father Vincent on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:17 am

    I've provided reason for my justification already. I'm not using a command seal to go up a flight of stairs when it's entirely possible I could make it up there after a one turn lock.


    I also hate to repeat myself. I told you I forgot and it was one square anyways. What I thought I did wrong was completely different from the other issue. Both me and Grimwind missed it. And I think it's funny how it's easy to spot something written in a spoiler in a post with RP with another spoiler followed by another post with a spoiler. It's not that hard to make another post or even ask me when I don't respond in two days. You know where I am on IRC. There's handing things to me on a silver plate and then there's almost deceiving me on purpose.


    You aren't complaining because that is literally the sole reason why you aren't dead right now. Again, the fact that Grimwind can't even keep his mechanics straight is the point.


    I'm sorry, unknown opponents vs huge ass resource advantage. God forbid I win after preparing everything I possibly could against two players who just stood there waiting to trade blows vs. 8 other people whose abilities you also don't know. How did you prepare for that battle again? Certainly not anything in-game as I saw nothing out of the ordinary. But who knows? Maybe your preparation is actually outside the game and I guess it'd be correct for me to just ASSume you paid Grimwind to win a silly forum RPG and antagonize a player on purpose. Because ASSuming things like that is perfectly logical and fine.
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    Re: I'm going to whine and complain

    Post by Lucid on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:24 am

    Why so funny Sushi. I'm guessing this topic has already server its original purpose. You've made your point clearly.
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