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    Rallasner

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    2 announcements

    Post by Rallasner on Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:49 am

    Alright, 2 announcements regarding fights.

    First off: If you do not mention it in your post, it is not happening. Same deal as your character sheet, we had a mixup regarding that so I'm making this post so EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS. No excuses anymore~

    Second off: I'm slightly changing how battles will work from now on, to hopefully make it a bit more interesting. Changes will be shown in the Battles and damage topic under rules as a reply, perhaps. LOOK FORWARD TO IT
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:22 am

    I have given the new battle system additions a lot of thought but I cannot agree with them being an improvement. Hiding the actions is going to void the strategic part of the battles, adding a lot more random luck in the mix. It also punishes someone for a bad action a LOT more than it should and it will also shorten battles to a few turns, not allowing every character to use most of their items, skills and spells.

    The clashing system is not something I agree with either, after giving it thought it is going to favor certain Servant classes a lot more than the rest of the classes and a battle MAY be decided purely from STR and AGI stats.

    EDIT: I also believe that the clashing system will reduce the value of the 'defend' action, being used almost exclusively when protecting your Master or a third party. Dodge is going to be a gamble now unless you are sure you will dodge. (And if you are dodging, you most likely cannot block or clash without significant chip damage)

    EDIT2: After several hours I still cannot see a single positive thing about the proposed system because the current rules were created with the basis that you know what your opponent is going to do. It replaces the strategic elements with guessing and luck and in my opinion, that removes the fun out of the RP.

    That does not mean I think the system will never work - it can work if the rules were created accordingly with this system from the start.

    Please consider rolling the system back - I believe the best way to prove my point is to run battle simulations as that will show how battles will be determinated from guessing, pure luck and AGI/STR stats. (Battle duration will also be reduced a LOT, I do not believe anyone wants to lose a battle in 3~ turns, which is highly possible)



    Last edited by Belmont on Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Meroy

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Meroy on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:38 am

    I have to agree with Belmont on this one for the already mentionned reasons
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    Xenovent

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Xenovent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:59 am

    I have to agree with the opposition on this one. The changes seem to lend themselves entirely to stat-musclehandling and nothing else.

    Removing knowledge of who is using what does not enhance the RP experience, it stifles it, since how can you well react to something you can't see? In an actual battle, the reacting character would presumably be able to see each action their opponent takes. The showing of battle actions is just the OOC way of stating this reality.

    I understand why higher agi would do these things, the Nasuverse has always seemed to favor creative uses of abilities and not stat-mongering. I believe this "ignore clash" extra ability of higher AGI is overpowering AGI even more. Isn't it enough that higher AGI gets more actions? To also let them get free attacks in too just seems like too much, especially if someone can't guess their action order correctly.

    I agree that some battle simulations (and not the unlucky people to fight next in the RP) would be a better way to judge.

    Take or leave my opinion as you will, but personally if you want to reward good RP then battles should be rewarded by how well thought-out posts are...taking what a person says about location, watching their opponent, motivations, skill use, etc, and then using the stats are the GM's guide to how well things work out. This, admittedly, would give the GM almost arbitrary power in battles, but it would also motivate people to RP well.

    And while I can't put it as well as Belmont, I do think he has the right idea. Please consider rolling it back or at least simulating some non-canon battles so that fairness can be assured.

    Father Vincent

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:30 am

    I think you're all misunderstanding something; you DO know what moves will be used. While Rall gave a pretty vague example, I am under the impression that the number of actions would be stated in the RP post. Depending on how Rall plans to reward good RP/penalize bad RP, people should be motivated to not be super vague. The only real change I can see here is the importance of ordering your attacks correctly merely for the clashing system.

    Even if the number of actions aren't stated, that encourages more information gathering since you can't always take the optimal path now. This can also go into mind games where you pretend to have less action points than you actually do by doing nothing. Clashing isn't a huge disadvantage. If you're a Master, chances are, you're a magi and you would be casting spells anyways. This means that this system is already in play for you. If you happen to be stupid enough to make a melee oriented Master, your AGI stat should be buffed already or you would've lost anyways. Plus, special abilities probably don't fall under the clashing system.

    Honestly, the changes could be a lot more drastic. Think Fate Extra where you HAVE to defend the attack in the currect order or it becomes useless. The battle system is mostly the same, so please don't drag this game any longer with needless drama.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:44 am

    Father Vincent wrote:I think you're all misunderstanding something; you DO know what moves will be used. While Rall gave a pretty vague example, I am under the impression that the number of actions would be stated in the RP post.

    After talking with Rall about this yesterday he confirmed that the exact number will never be posted. People are going to take very liberal interpretations of words in order to abuse this. Dodging will become a bad idea, because if you HAVE to dodge, chances are blocking or clashing will force you to take huge chip damage. You can easily abuse the system in order to make the Servant waste his two actions dodging.

    Father Vincent wrote:Even if the number of actions aren't stated, that encourages more information gathering since you can't always take the optimal path now. This can also go into mind games where you pretend to have less action points than you actually do by doing nothing.

    Except very few characters got information gathering because we all built our Master's around the system Grimwind created. Under the current system you can still play mind games using less actions than you have because you never state how many actions you can use in a battle. I repeat myself, it becomes a game of guessing and luck with little strategy.

    Father Vincent wrote:Clashing isn't a huge disadvantage.

    Wrong, clashing can end a battle very early if the Servant's have a huge difference in damage, even if the one that deals less damage has 2+ AGI ranks. Clashing also makes the defend option almost obsolete, being used only in certain situations. (ex. blocking an attack that will not clash, protecting your Master)

    Father Vincent wrote:If you're a Master, chances are, you're a magi and you would be casting spells anyways. This means that this system is already in play for you. If you happen to be stupid enough to make a melee oriented Master, your AGI stat should be buffed already or you would've lost anyways. Plus, special abilities probably don't fall under the clashing system.

    The problem lies in the Servants because of the huge damage difference each Servant has, not in the Masters (which are rarely going to engage in melee battle).

    Father Vincent wrote:Honestly, the changes could be a lot more drastic. Think Fate Extra where you HAVE to defend the attack in the currect order or it becomes useless. The battle system is mostly the same, so please don't drag this game any longer with needless drama.

    This is not Fate/extra. The game core rules are very different and it cannot be compared to Rule Breaker.

    I have to disagree with the battle system being mostly the same, otherwise a lot of us (6 players) would not be disagreeing with it so much. If we keep Grim's system the game can once again proceed.

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:03 am

    Grim already stressed information gathering as an important component in the game. If you designed your character without it, you're screwed even without this new system anyways. The need isn't even that much greater either; you can easily play the same way and get away with it.

    And you're really blowing the whole "guessing" part of this out of proportion. This only has relevance in clashing and the number of defense actions you should use, really. And clashing DOES NOT make defense obsolete. Defense is guaranteed, while clashing is not. And clashing won't be too huge of a disadvantage since there's always the risk of getting one-shotted by pooling everything in attack. And again, clashing isn't that big of a deal due to special skills/spells.

    The underlying purpose of this system seems to be making battles go faster. Sorry, I'd rather not spend a year without finishing this game. Even forgetting about the whole timezone problem, it'd still take forever to finish at the rate we're going.

    And I raised Fate/Extra as an example of why this system ISN'T as bad as you think. If you're REALLY adamant about wasting time, instead of a complete rollback, just make suggestions to improve Rall's battle system. Honestly, I don't see why you guys won't give this a chance. If this doesn't work, we can always make new characters. If it does work, yay. The last thing we need is the game completely halting due to people refusing to adapt.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:34 am

    Father Vincent wrote:Grim already stressed information gathering as an important component in the game. If you designed your character without it, you're screwed even without this new system anyways. The need isn't even that much greater either; you can easily play the same way and get away with it.

    This is true and it is our fault if we designed our characters without any skill to help us in this task. But I disagree with that is isn't much more important now, if you do not know the damage a Servant deals you are in for a bad surprise because you cannot estimate attack power correctly by their class.

    Father Vincent wrote:And you're really blowing the whole "guessing" part of this out of proportion. This only has relevance in clashing and the number of defense actions you should use, really. And clashing DOES NOT make defense obsolete. Defense is guaranteed, while clashing is not. And clashing won't be too huge of a disadvantage since there's always the risk of getting one-shotted by pooling everything in attack. And again, clashing isn't that big of a deal due to special skills/spells.

    You are forgetting about dodging and how it becomes a huge gamble unless the conditions are perfect for you to use it. I do not believe I am overestimating the "guessing" part of the new system because a bad guess can get you killed and errors will be a lot more frequent now. Clashing is a huge advantage and I already covered that in my previous post.

    EDIT: "And clashing DOES NOT make defense obsolete. Defense is guaranteed, while clashing is not." Re-read my previous post.

    Father Vincent wrote:The underlying purpose of this system seems to be making battles go faster. Sorry, I'd rather not spend a year without finishing this game. Even forgetting about the whole timezone problem, it'd still take forever to finish at the rate we're going.

    Battles lasting 2-4 turns is NOT good and even under the current system that can happen.

    Father Vincent wrote:And I raised Fate/Extra as an example of why this system ISN'T as bad as you think. If you're REALLY adamant about wasting time, instead of a complete rollback, just make suggestions to improve Rall's battle system. Honestly, I don't see why you guys won't give this a chance. If this doesn't work, we can always make new characters. If it does work, yay. The last thing we need is the game completely halting due to people refusing to adapt.

    More than half the players disagree with the system, it should be obvious that the battle system should be rolled back in order for the game to progress.

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:59 am

    I don't see how information gathering being slightly more important matters. The information you gather will still be the same and you were going to be screwed over anyways if you had no way to gather information in the first place.

    About clashing; defense is the most sure-fire way to defend against normal attacks. It isn't order dependent and it has little to do with agility. Clashing isn't something one would rely on unless you revealed your cards early (e.x. LOL SUSHI HAS LOW AGILITY LE'S JUST SPAM ATTACK SKILLS). Even then, that just means you have to plan ahead for the battles. Traps, formation, usage of environment, co-operation between Master and Servant, etc. are of greater importance now.

    And I'd rather a game finish quickly than never finish at all, thanks. And popular opinion=/=truth. Also, Rall is the game master, so his voice is pretty much above ours.

    I'd rather we just stop here and wait for Rall to make his decision, since w/e we does nothing right now. I just think it's stupid that we're going to delay the game EVEN FURTHER just to make the game STAY THE EXACT SAME.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:22 pm

    Father Vincent wrote:I don't see how information gathering being slightly more important matters. The information you gather will still be the same and you were going to be screwed over anyways if you had no way to gather information in the first place.

    Not exactly true, but that's a whole different matter which I don't even consider that important so I'll stop here with it.

    Father Vincent wrote:Clashing isn't something one would rely on unless you revealed your cards early

    Wrong, it is easy to guess a classes' AGI rank (unlike their damage) and use the correct amount of defend and attack orders to inflict as much chip damage as possible whether you go first or second. From the second turn onwards as you know the opponent's agility rank for sure (unless they used an action less, for example, which is possible in the old system too) clash effectively replaces the defend action (there are exceptions, though).

    Father Vincent wrote:co-operation between Master and Servant, etc. are of greater importance now.

    Wrong, it has diminished with the new system. A Master's main role is to break any stalemate in a fight and with the new system a stalemate will rarely be reached.

    Father Vincent wrote:And I'd rather a game finish quickly than never finish at all, thanks. And popular opinion=/=truth.

    Like I said, fights under the old system do not last as long as you think, even under the old system a fight can last less than 5 turns. Using the term "popular opinion" here is completely wrong, I'm not even going to bother to explain, sorry.

    Father Vincent wrote:I just think it's stupid that we're going to delay the game EVEN FURTHER just to make the game STAY THE EXACT SAME.

    If it was the same no one would complain about it. And I forgot to mention it earlier - but the game is not being delayed by this topic.


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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:29 pm

    I honestly don't know why you're under the assumption that the only two skills that exist is Attack and Defend. I have stated countless times already that skills exist and spells exist. Clashing isn't even as serious as you think it is. Even for super melee oriented classes, the seriousness of the clashing is mitigated by passive skills and THE FREAKIN' MASTER STANDING BEHIND IT! They're not just there as eye-candy; they have spells too.

    As for the whole information gathering part, it's you knowing what your opponent is capable of even before the fight. That's what I"m stressing here. Grim already emphasized on this; Rall's just makes it a bit more important. If you plan to discover what your opponent can do only after your second round with him, chances are you're screwed. And you have a vague idea of what Agility rank that Servant will have. Even ignoring the fact that the Master also boosts up the Servant, there are also exceptions to the standard idea of classes i.e. some Caster-based Berserker we had last Servant Battles game.

    I also raised those points as examples. Good job for leaving the rest out. Also, I don't know how you're playing the game, but a Master is supposed to be more than that. And don't even mention the whole length of the fights thing; we gone over it on IRC already.

    And yes, this will stall the game. A few posts back, you claimed that the game won't progress unless Rall rolls back the system. It may not happen now, but it certainly will happen if Rall refuses to listen to you.

    P.S. You should read the entirety of my post instead of some of just skimming through it so I don't have to repeat my points.

    P.P.S. Rall is a lazy jerk.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:09 pm

    Father Vincent wrote:P.S. You should read the entirety of my post instead of some of just skimming through it so I don't have to repeat my points.

    Funny you post that, considering that is what you have been doing since the start.

    Father Vincent wrote:I honestly don't know why you're under the assumption that the only two skills that exist is Attack and Defend.

    Except I am not, you are not reading my posts. I am only stressing these two actions because they are heavily affected by the system change.

    Father Vincent wrote:Clashing isn't even as serious as you think it is. Even for super melee oriented classes, the seriousness of the clashing is mitigated by passive skills

    -> Assuming they have passive skills. You are underestimating the difference in attack power of the Servant's.

    Father Vincent wrote:THE FREAKIN' MASTER STANDING BEHIND IT! They're not just there as eye-candy; they have spells too.

    Are you going to point out that Servants have NPs now too? A Servant could easily ignore a spell targeted at him or block it, that is only one or two attacks that do not clash.

    Father Vincent wrote:a Master is supposed to be more than that.

    Re-read my post, in a stalemate the Master's role is to break that stalemate, I did not post that their only role is to break stalemates.

    Father Vincent wrote:And don't even mention the whole length of the fights thing; we gone over it on IRC already.

    You keep bringing it up in all your arguments so I have no reason not to do so too and I will repeat myself fights under the old system do not last as long as you think, even under the old system a fight can last less than 5 turns. You are favoring this system heavily because you are under the impression it will shorten the game a lot, which is wrong because not all encounters are battles.

    Father Vincent wrote:A few posts back, you claimed that the game won't progress unless Rall rolls back the system.

    If by that you mean "If we keep Grim's system the game can once again proceed." that was my own mistake and is wrong. Rall never planned to pause the game until a system is decided.

    There is no point in continuing with this argument - it's a fact that more than half the player base wants the old system back and neither mine or your opinion will change that.

    EDIT:
    Father Vincent wrote:As for the whole information gathering part...

    "Not exactly true, but that's a whole different matter which I don't even consider that important so I'll stop here with it." You seem to forgot about this. Information gathering is not the main point I am trying to discuss so I will leave it out.

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:35 pm

    Uh, if you bring up new points all of a sudden, that doesn't mean I'm not reading. It means you're referring to points you either didn't clarify or a whole new point you didn't touch on. Another thing to note is that while I'm addressing ALL your points, you're ignoring a lot of mine and picking ones that just catch your eye. You're making me repeat points I've already made on previous posts.

    If you understand that attacking and defense isn't ALL THERE IS, then I don't see why you have to worry about this. It shouldn't be the only actions you should use since there's a huge character sheet for a reason. In fact, even if it IS just that, the clashing system really already balances itself out. If you have huge attack, chances are, you have less agility. If you have huge agility, chances are, you'd probably have less damage. The only exception I can see to this rule is Berserker, in which case you just have to find a strategy. That includes for other exceptions that I probably didn't think about.

    Also, you don't know how good or how passive skills will affect Servants. I'm under the assumption that Rall and/or Grim know what they are doing and didn't make useless passive skills.

    Yeah, Servants have NPs too. They also have skills+effects FYI. And you said a Master's MAIN ROLE is to break stalemates in a fight, which is erroneous. If you play/built your Master in a stupid way, it's not really the system's fault now is it?

    And I was talking about repeating the argument. We already went over that it WILL take longer because under Grim's system, the optimal path is so easy to take. It will prolong the game since you can always act in the best way possible. If a fight ends in less than 5 turns, that's incompetence on someone's part for being sneaked up upon or not preparing properly.

    As for the whole encounters bit, a lot of it could be spread through if people just did non-battle events it in real time under the supervision of Rall. And if that doesn't work, a 3 day limit on events would easily solve this. And this still doesn't change the fact that the brunt of this delay is caused by Meroy and Alems, who are going through a 12 round battle under this system. And we already went through that the normal person will go through 2-3 posts a day, so do the math yourself.

    I am favoring this system because this drama over the system switch WILL prolong the game. It's quite clear that you guys aren't willing to compromise if it won't swing your way, and even you caught yourself revealing your intentions. If 6 players refuse to play the game, then the game never finishes. All I'm saying is; give it a shot and see how this system works out. We have nothing to lose, and frankly, I'm tired of a month per round.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:18 am

    Father Vincent wrote:If you understand that attacking and defense isn't ALL THERE IS, then I don't see why you have to worry about this. It shouldn't be the only actions you should use since there's a huge character sheet for a reason. In fact, even if it IS just that, the clashing system really already balances itself out. If you have huge attack, chances are, you have less agility. If you have huge agility, chances are, you'd probably have less damage. The only exception I can see to this rule is Berserker, in which case you just have to find a strategy. That includes for other exceptions that I probably didn't think about.

    For someone who has little to no information about Servants you shouldn't make such assumptions.

    Father Vincent wrote:Also, you don't know how good or how passive skills will affect Servants. I'm under the assumption that Rall and/or Grim know what they are doing and didn't make useless passive skills.

    Again, you are assuming they have some sort of passive skill that will help them during clashing.

    Father Vincent wrote:And you said a Master's MAIN ROLE is to break stalemates in a fight, which is erroneous. If you play/built your Master in a stupid way, it's not really the system's fault now is it?

    That is your opinion, everyone built their Masters with different roles in mind and mine excels in that category. I believe that is a Master's main role, but that does NOT mean that is their only role.

    Father Vincent wrote:And I was talking about repeating the argument. We already went over that it WILL take longer because under Grim's system, the optimal path is so easy to take. It will prolong the game since you can always act in the best way possible. If a fight ends in less than 5 turns, that's incompetence on someone's part for being sneaked up upon or not preparing properly.

    Wrong, there is something called bad match ups. You should not try to bring up such arguments if you have no information about the Servants.

    Father Vincent wrote:As for the whole encounters bit, a lot of it could be spread through if people just did non-battle events it in real time under the supervision of Rall.

    This is what should be done but you know, it is not always possible due to timezone differences, I already told you this.

    Father Vincent wrote:And if that doesn't work, a 3 day limit on events would easily solve this.

    Except time limits don't work for obvious reasons.

    Father Vincent wrote:And this still doesn't change the fact that the brunt of this delay is caused by Meroy and Aelms

    Their fight finished already 2(3?) days ago, no new events have happened since then.

    Father Vincent wrote:I am favoring this system because this drama over the system switch WILL prolong the game.

    By favoring it you are prolonging it yourself.

    Father Vincent wrote:It's quite clear that you guys aren't willing to compromise if it won't swing your way, and even you caught yourself revealing your intentions.

    We don't like it, we voice our opinions.

    Father Vincent wrote:If 6 players refuse to play the game, then the game never finishes.

    We are NOT refusing to play, we just disagree with the changes made and we want them rolled back.

    Father Vincent wrote:All I'm saying is; give it a shot and see how this system works out. We have nothing to lose, and frankly, I'm tired of a month per round.

    We do not want to give it a try, everyone has their own reason for not wanting to. And yes, we do have something to lose, our characters and their RP. I already explained this to you over IRC and your argument of "just make a new one" is invalid.

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:00 am

    So really, in the end, this isn't a flaw in the game system's design, but a flaw in your character. The only difference I can see in the game systems is that you can't always take the optimal route. Your Master is also pretty useless if all he can do is break stalemates, seeing as how you should be pro-active in battles or get screwed over for it. Now, I don't know how you built your Master to "break stalemates", but if it can't double as some sort of significant defense or attack, that's your fault. You would've been raped in Grim's system if you built your Master like that anyways.

    I can make assumptions about Servants because there are archetypes. There is also previous Servant info from the canon works. As for the passive skills, we've already seen in the Servant Battle games how good they can be.

    Time limits WILL work if people actually decided to put as much info as they can in the little posts that they have. Events (not including battles) should be done like this. If a post a day is all two parties can manage, a 3-day limit where they both fit everything they can is fine (6 posts is adequate).

    And I was talking about the length of the fights. My statement was true; the brunt of the delay was their battle.

    And no, by favouring it, I plan to stop any delays. If I just leave it as it is, Rall won't budge and you guys won't budge. And I can guess that you guys WILL refuse to play if Rall won't listen to you. Even you know that's an option you can and/or will take, as shown by your statements in your previous posts. And as much as I like my character and RP, I'm fine with making an entirely new one. I already foresaw this anyways, seeing as how this is only the first game.

    FYI, I'd rather that you don't post the way you do and just counter my posts in their entirety. You're tunnel visioning on specific sentences and you're missing the points that I already made to support them.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:41 am

    Father Vincent wrote:So really, in the end, this isn't a flaw in the game system's design, but a flaw in your character. The only difference I can see in the game systems is that you can't always take the optimal route. Your Master is also pretty useless if all he can do is break stalemates, seeing as how you should be pro-active in battles or get screwed over for it. Now, I don't know how you built your Master to "break stalemates", but if it can't double as some sort of significant defense or attack, that's your fault. You would've been raped in Grim's system if you built your Master like that anyways.

    Wrong, wrong and wrong again. You are pushing the issues onto the Masters but the problem lies with the Servants here and I do not plan to reveal any information about my Master just to prove my point.

    Father Vincent wrote:I can make assumptions about Servants because there are archetypes. There is also previous Servant info from the canon works. As for the passive skills, we've already seen in the Servant Battle games how good they can be.

    Again, just assumptions.

    Father Vincent wrote:Time limits WILL work if people actually decided to put as much info as they can in the little posts that they have. Events (not including battles) should be done like this. If a post a day is all two parties can manage, a 3-day limit where they both fit everything they can is fine (6 posts is adequate).

    They will not work, I already talked to Grim about this during the start of the game and we reached the conclusion that it is NOT possible to implement them properly.

    Father Vincent wrote:And I was talking about the length of the fights. My statement was true; the brunt of the delay was their battle.

    Not going to repeat myself again.

    Father Vincent wrote:And no, by favouring it, I plan to stop any delays. If I just leave it as it is, Rall won't budge and you guys won't budge.

    You are the only one who favors this system, six of us want it rolled back and I am talking to the last person in order to know his opinion on this system.

    Father Vincent wrote:And I can guess that you guys WILL refuse to play if Rall won't listen to you.

    Sorry to inform you, but that's wrong, you are just making false assumptions again.

    Father Vincent wrote:Even you know that's an option you can and/or will take, as shown by your statements in your previous posts.

    It is an option, yes, but I do not plan to take it nor do the others.

    Father Vincent wrote:And as much as I like my character and RP, I'm fine with making an entirely new one. I already foresaw this anyways, seeing as how this is only the first game.

    I have better ideas for a new character but wasting them just to try a system that will not work is just stupid. And yes, I know it will not work and so do the others, this is why we are against the new system.

    Father Vincent wrote:FYI, I'd rather that you don't post the way you do and just counter my posts in their entirety. You're tunnel visioning on specific sentences and you're missing the points that I already made to support them.

    Again, funny that you are saying that considering every point you are going over was already covered in one of my posts before.

    Meroy

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    Join date : 2010-05-30

    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Meroy on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:52 am

    You do know our fight only lasted like 3-4 turns and took a lot of time because of rule issue and 12 hour difference in timezone sushi, you can't really use that as an example of why the system is slow.

    That new system just seems to lead to akward and random situation where you just defend when nothing happens and don't when you're being attacked. Why would I try to block an attack if the attack is not comming. I block an attack when I know i'm being attacked, I don't try to evade when nothing is happening.





    Father Vincent

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Father Vincent on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:57 am

    So if there's a problem with Servants not stalemating (which isn't exactly a problem), and your Master is somehow stupidly fit for this role of stalemating (I don't even know what went through your mind when you made him), the problem is with the Servant? What?

    And inferring how the battles would work through past experience and knowledge of the archetypes is just false assumptions? Huh? And sorry, Grim isn't the GM anymore. 6 posts is more than enough for a proper event.

    The length of the delay IS due to the fights. 12 days bro. I don't care if we didn't have new events for two days; the huge problem is still in the length of the fights.

    And don't lie; the tone you've had for your past posts already indicate you WILL do it, or that you've considered it seriously. Now that I've called you out on this, you plan to retract your statements it because it makes you look bad. Nice job. And you KNOW the system will not work without even trying it? How about telling me the lotto numbers too?

    Way to make me repeat myself a million times again man. Good to see that you're open to suggestions and changed the way you see posts and how to respond. Also, the fact that you repeat yourself also is that you're super vague with your points. I'm typing twice whatever you're putting out because I'd rather the game go on smoothly and both sides understand each other. You, on the other hand, act as if it's my fault that I can't see into your mind when your points are just so general and vague. FYI, the reason why the points are covered AGAIN is because you don't get what I'm saying (again, because you're skimming through posts. I re-read your posts at least three times before making a response, BTW).

    EDIT: And to Meroy, Belmont has told me that your fight has lasted 12 turns. [strike]I won't even bother to explain your other horrible points because it'd be a waste of my effort.[/ strike] Actually I will. They put themselves in a state where they're preparing for it or something.
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    Belmont

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    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Belmont on Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:58 am

    Father Vincent wrote:So if there's a problem with Servants not stalemating (which isn't exactly a problem), and your Master is somehow stupidly fit for this role of stalemating (I don't even know what went through your mind when you made him), the problem is with the Servant? What?

    This is not exactly what I meant but I can see how you reach that conclusion. With the new system stalemates are going to be rarer, which in turn, decreases the value of Masters in my opinion (I know they can do more and my Master can do a hell lot more than just breaking stalemates).

    Father Vincent wrote:And inferring how the battles would work through past experience

    You said you had none, though.

    Father Vincent wrote:and knowledge of the archetypes is just false assumptions? Huh?

    It helps a little, but the Servants (from the ones I know) are a far cry from the archetypes.

    Father Vincent wrote:6 posts is more than enough for a proper event.

    Maybe, maybe not, it depends on what event it is and the length of each post.

    Father Vincent wrote:The length of the delay IS due to the fights. 12 days bro. I don't care if we didn't have new events for two days; the huge problem is still in the length of the fights.

    So because only one fight has lasted that long you believe the rest of the fights will also last 12 days?

    Father Vincent wrote:And don't lie; the tone you've had for your past posts already indicate you WILL do it, or that you've considered it seriously. Now that I've called you out on this, you plan to retract your statements it because it makes you look bad. Nice job.

    I would like you to quote me on that because I do not see it anywhere.

    Father Vincent wrote:And you KNOW the system will not work without even trying it? How about telling me the lotto numbers too?

    Because I have run several simulations (already said this before) and the results are far from good. I doubt I am the only one who has tried to run simulations and got negative results, otherwise we wouldn't have 6 players opposing the system.

    Father Vincent wrote:Way to make me repeat myself a million times again man.

    You're forcing me to do it too.

    Father Vincent wrote:Good to see that you're open to suggestions and changed the way you see posts and how to respond.

    I didn't change anything, I just removed from other posts information that I do not consider important.

    Father Vincent wrote:Also, the fact that you repeat yourself also is that you're super vague with your points.

    Maybe it's true, but I do not see the need to make myself clear when this argument is not going to lead anywhere.

    Father Vincent wrote:You, on the other hand, act as if it's my fault that I can't see into your mind when your points are just so general and vague.

    I never specifically said it is your fault - but you are mentioning that this argument is delaying the progress of the game - and if that is true, then you are at fault because you are the only one supporting the system.

    Father Vincent wrote:FYI, the reason why the points are covered AGAIN is because you don't get what I'm saying (again, because you're skimming through posts. I re-read your posts at least three times before making a response, BTW)

    I could say the same thing to you.

    Father Vincent wrote:EDIT: And to Meroy, Belmont has told me that your fight has lasted 12 turns. [strike]I won't even bother to explain your other horrible points because it'd be a waste of my effort.[/ strike] Actually I will. They put themselves in a state where they're preparing for it or something.

    I told you that was my general guess, because the pace seemed to one post per day and as the battle lasted 12 days, I guessed the amount of turns was 12, but that is apparently wrong




    EDIT: And we should end this argument because we are just going in circles without clearing anything, we both have radically differing opinions on the systems and we won't be able to convince each other that either system will be OK so it would be for the best if we wait for Rall to post his final decision of the system. Of course, if you have any new points you want to bring up that is fine.
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    Rallasner

    Heaven's Feel 7 : Game-Master
    Heaven's Feel 6 : Retired Overseer
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    Join date : 2010-06-27

    Re: 2 announcements

    Post by Rallasner on Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:23 am

    Since you want me to post, we're still using it. End of story~ Thread locked~ Blah Blah Blah~

    Side note: game is delayed but not cuz of this, waiting on aelms for confirmation on something~

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    Re: 2 announcements

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